Today we will be working on our commercials but, before we do that, I want you to comment on the following...
QUESTION: The killing of Trayvon Martin has been in the news a lot lately, including pictures of his killer and the nice neighborhood the killing took place in. Do you think this killing is about race? Could it be about economic class? Why do you suppose Mr. Zimmerman was so afraid of a young black boy in a hoodie?
[NOTE: IF you have NOT heard news about Trayvon Martin being killed write about how you get your news and information - how do you find out what is going on in the world?]
(Click "# comments" below, choose Google Account and log-in with your school email - and be sure and add your REAL NAME to the comment so that you can get credit easily)
84 comments:
This is an example comment - John Kittredge
I think that the man that killed Trayon Martin did it just because he could and kind of because seeing a young black man in a hoodie in a nice neighborhood can cause some type of uneasiness based on stereotypes following young black men but to add an aid of camouflage could intensify the uneasiness....but I also think that all of these reasons are ways to try to justify what be did-Raven Bridges
the way i found out things that are happening on the world might be like on the news or even by my peers. my peers would be sad if they had somebody closed to them killed or happy if they found out they will no longe be a border or some thing like that. I most likely found out things out on my community. might be banners, posters, ads, or even my own neighbors.
maybe the man was crazy because he mite have just thought it was ok to do something ignorant. It mite have been about race he probably was scared because you know the stereotypes about a boy in a black hoodie. -rickey
the way i found out things that are happening on the world might be like on the news or even by my peers. my peers would be sad if they had somebody closed to them killed or happy if they found out they will no longe be a border or some thing like that. I most likely found out things out on my community. might be banners, posters, ads, or even my own neighbors.- Jose Licea
I think it was not justified and it was racial because it was a black young man wearing a hoody in a predominantly white neighborhood. So stereotypically Mr.Zimmerman thought that probably Trayvon was robbing from house to house. So Mr.Zimmerman thought it was his duty as a neighborhood watch to kill Trayvon in a sense. So yes it was based on race.
-Emani Towns
yes, i do think it was because of race,because it seems like every time a whit or other races see a black boy or man in a black hoody they think that he supose have a gun or try to rob somebody and they dont realize that they are just wearing the hoody because they want toso he shot him because he was black. - Jahshay B. p.1
I don't even know what this is about I don't hear about news unless is going to affect me. I get my information by other people when they come to tell me other wise I don't really care and don't like news. My friend told me about this morning and me and her were saying that maybe it has to do with race.
I think thats F***ed up because it makes no sense to it Trayvon wasn't armed and the guy just decided to kill him in the middle of the night about walking around, racism needs to stop also this is a big issue that people think has stopped but actually hasn't stopped because if it has wed all be able to be in the same room as other races. I found out about this on FB.
Yes, I think it was about race in my opinion because if it was a white guy with a hod-die he would not of said or did anything.No,it is about race and stuff always like this happens and the guys that kil always get passes and stuff never go to jail to is getting sickening.I think he was not afraid afraid but just took advantage of the young black guy because he knew he could get away with it.Also he might of just been a little scared but come on now he had some skittles and a arizona in his hand.
-------gene------
I believe Mr. Zimmerman was very afraid of young black Trayvon. One reason might be that he just followed his instinct of a black youth walking down the street at night is a bad sign. Or maybe he was just a racist. All in all, it was pretty messed up when Zimmerman shot him without knowing his. This just shows that stereotypes have a huge affect on a community. -Zuri
I think its about race because they always be saying that African Americans are always doing the troubles but its wrong because there are some people that are Latinos, Chines or White people that do some crimes. I think he was afraid but I think he didnt had no reason to go up to Trayvon and kill him if Trayvon didnt went up to Zimmerman and told him or did something that was going to hurt Zimmerman.
I think that the killing was based on racism, class, stereotypes, and some who judged a book by its cover in this case Trayvon's clothes. I think it also could've been about economic class because just because of what the kid was wearing and because of the place he was in.-Beto
Maybe it was about race because the guy said he looked suspicious but he was wearing normal clothes like every body else wears. The guy said he shot him as self-defence but Trayvon was screaming for help and ends up getting killed.
BrianB
I think Mr. Zimmerman was afraid of Trayvon Martin because he was wear this hoodie and maybe he thought that the kid was going to do something to him that's want I think but there is other options that other people have. And I think this killing was all about race because made he dont like his race that's what I think he did that to him. But I think that Mr. Zimmerman is very races for doing that because he killed a kid for no reason just for wearing a hoodie. - Dominique Trejo
I think that a person like Mr. Zimmerman is prejudice against people like Trayvon Martin because the world has come to a place of where a young black boy is supposed to be suspicious and I think that its sad to think that a person would just kill someone else like that. He got killed out of rasism and there should be more people who can show that black people are not what they are claimed to be. -Christie Levine
racism is so horrible and this is a great example and if this was a other way around then trayvon would be in jail
i havent heard about the death about trevon martin because i havent been watching the news lately so thats why i havent heard about any news of this crime all i know of it is that he got killed in florida
abel martinez
I think it was about race and also because of what he was wearing. Mr. Zimmerman was most likely a racist man because no one would just follow a black male in a hoodie wating for him to do something if he evnn does something. But I also think that Mr. Zimmerman was wrong to kill Tayvon Martin in manny ways but I think it was mostly racism. - Hugo Moran
Well yea i do think its based on race because just because you not white does not mean that you are suspicious or that you are going to do something bad. The guy that shot him sed that it was "Self Defence". Karina Martinez
I think Trayvon Martin was killed because of his race. Mr.Zimmerman just looked at him as a black kid and instantly thought he was going to be a problem because he was black. I bet if it would have been a white boy walking those street's that afternoon no one would have died. Worse is that Mr.Zimmerman was brought in for questioning and they let him go. - Francisco Leon
I think that this whole situation was about race and Mr. Zimmerman killed Trayvon Martin because he was black. I dont think it was because of class because nobody would kill anybody because they are poor. I think He was afraid of Trayvon because since he was in a hoodie, he assumed that he had been up to no good. That is wrong that he assumed something before he even got to know him. Since he claims that it was self defense, then maybe it was because he attacked first and Trayvon was defending himself and Zimmerman had no other option but to shoot him.
-------------------Gibran---------Gibran--------------Gibran------------Gibran------------
I think that the whole controversy behind the trayvon martin case is pointless. Okay, a young black man was murdered by a white man. O-kay? like this hasn't happened before. People die everyday, but we only seem to focus on the deaths of black men at the hands of white men. We must all fear evil men. but there is an evil that we should fear most: the indifference of good men. now, im not saying that either was evil, nor good. just putting that one out there. but in all honesty, the man probably internalized that people in black hoodies are up to no good. If you were in a nice neighborhood, and you hear of the crimes of men in black hoodies, you begin to think that ALL men in hoodies are evil men. Clearly not the case here. but, who will ever know what provoked that man to pull the trigger?-Carmen McNealey
I havent heard about Trayvon Martin but when I notice what is happening in the world is by face book, school, news, or youtube. But this time I haven't heard anything till right now. Because I haven't been in those things or anything but I am for sure that later I will know more information about it.
- Jessica Montano
i think that its very sad because he got killed over his looks basicly and its pretty much racism. its very sad that that happend and something should be done about that -Adrian lang
I never heard this news before and it seems stupid. I get my news information from yahoo when I get signed into my email address sometimes. Sometimes I get the news from Facebook or sometimes from a family member but anyways this news information about Trayvon's death is wrong and cruel and very very very very very stupid. I can't believe our country has racists people.-Stephanie Alfaro
I think its because of race because he thought he was suspicious of his skin color and he followed him Trayvon put the hoodie on because he saw Mr Zimmerman and thats why he put the hood on! And that what made Mr zimmerman kill him because he looked suspicious. But still thats not right he should had followed him until he left his neighborhood. -Marcos Medina Period 2
you can find out wats going on in the world by internet u can look it up. or by news paper there is always news about the world -elizabeth
well to me this is noting new... this is always happening, the times comes when it comes you never know if your next, even I would be next, I don't know..
ps~ Dj Mario
I think Mr. Zimmerman was feeling like he was going to get hurt or jumped because he was wearing a hoodie and most people think that if you wear a black hoodie you going to rob someone or kill someone. But he did that because he felt like Trayvon Martin was going to rob him because of the hoodie and the color of his skin. I think really that he should go to jail for killing a 17 year old boy for nothing. Trayvon probably was a nice and sweet boy that shouldn't have died for reason at all.-Adreanna Paschal
I think that this was based on stereotypes and race because by the clothes Trayvon was wearing and the skin color, of course Trayvon's physical appearance. Mr. Zimmerman had a suspicion sense that Trayvon was doing something wrong and reported that Trayvon was attacking Mr.Zimmerman.
I suppose that Mr. Zimmerman felt inferior to Trayvon Martin and chose to attack. His actions were racist and immature. Trayvon was an innocent being, behaving normally and Zimmerman was being injustice. There is no reason to kill a young man wearing a black hoodie and eating candy, other than having racist and stereotypical ideas. I believe Trayvon Martin deserves justice, and Zimmerman is only receiving "good treatment" due to his ethnicity.
; Ti Yt Faotusia
I think no matter how many times we gather to discuss racism and no matter how we talk about changing the world for a better place, racism will still be in our world. Because he was black and wearing a hoodie his life had to be taken to where as if he was white and the shooter was black, this story would have been on every news station and the shooter would have been sent to death penalty. But who wants to another statistic in the world, the racist people do. I'M TIRED OF THIS MESSED UP WORLD-KARIMAH O.
I think Mr. Zimmerman was afraid of a young black man in a hoodie because it was about race. There was no honest reason on why he killed him, and just because he looked "suspect" to Mr. Zimmerman dosen't give him the right to follow him like track him down just to see what he was up to; that wasn't any of his business he even called the police in and they said to leave Trayvon alone and that there was no reason to track him but he did ANYWAYS and ended up killing the kid. Mr. Zimmerman deserves to get in some type of trouble because he didn't follow orders given to him by the 911 call he made himself and did what he wanted to do anyways which was to kill Trayvon Martin .
- Desi Smyth
period 2
Jose Garcia:
I think this a racial situation. Mr. Zimmerman saw a black male with a hoodie on, and automatically assuming this black male was a criminal. Mr. Zimmerman even call the police saying "there is black male who looks suspicious". This is what I don't understand, how is someone wearing a hoodie make you look suspicious especially if your black.
In my own personal believe, I believe that yes , it was because it was racism and because the his physical looks were. I think that it was not fair , that the police should get Mr. Zimmerman a** in jail! I don't think it was fair to Trayvon, to his family , not his community for what he had caused! Every person is the same, no one is different just by it's color , by who or where they came from and more definitely for how they look like. I think that we have to fight for our rights, to make the people look what is wrong and whats write and I believe that Mr. Zimmerman should be ashamed of himself and he is already to old to know whats the correct thing to do! If they told him to stop following him then he should have done what they told him. Racism is something big going on in this world but racism shouldn't be going this far. -Liz
Well yes i believe that Trayvon Martin got killed because of his race , i say that because if you think about it there have been a few incidents where someone has killed a different race because of something " they thought was going to happen to them". I mean if i was suppose walk down the street in some baggy jeans and a hoodie , does that mean im going to get shot ? think about how is family feels and innocent young man being killed because of "someones thoughts". There shouldn't have been a reason why a child who had done nothing to no one , who was on his way back home quiet and to his self had to be shot its very sad.... - Mikaela
All i want to say is that im going to quote "Mark Wills" dont call me names. In God's eyes we're all the same-RAYMOND OUT!!!!!!!!!
This man did it just to be a fool and a racist because in the call they tell him not to follow Trayvon Martin
If he would have listened to the police nobody would have gotten hurt. This was unfair for Trayvon in so many ways just because of his color and a hoodie. Zimmermans job was to protect the community not to F**k it up. He was too scared of a young black male he had to pull the trigger. RIP TRAYVON... JUSTICE FOR EVERYONE!!!! ~~_ JESUS RAMIREZ _~~
I think that he did this because of race and also appearance, because I know how people might feel when they see this strange person with a hooded sweatshirt walking on a nice neighborhood. BUt it doesn't give that man the right to just kill him because of "self defense", I heard that the kid didn't havw any type of weapon. so that man did wrong and deserves to be punished. Luis Ortega
I think its about race cause I saw that this one man well this one poster supposedly he killed him for "being black while walking" thats some bullshit and its fucked up in my opinion. it looked so racist why will you go shoot him if supposedly he following you but it come out you was following him. Fuck the system smh. Bryant DelAngel
I have not heard about this news. The way I get my news is hearing it from my mom who talks to me about things on the news all the time or from john who is always talking about something on the news - onesty
the man who started it was just to make thing difficult and he did it because of his own stuped reasons.
also because he was to scared of black males .so then that was mad fo him to pull the trigger.
~<3 BRIANNA THOMAS-HERNANDEZ <3~
yes this is about race.if he should of listen to the police nobody would of goten hurt. This is unfair for trayvon in so many ways, just bc of his color and a hoodie. BRYAN VALADEZ
This killing was based on racially stereotyping a young black male, thinking he was gonna "do something" even though he was a good kid that was just coming back from the store. Mr.Zimmerman was being racist and judging this kid based on the color of his skin and the clothes he wore he was afraid because he thought this kid was gonna hurt him so he did "self-defense" even though he wasn't even under attack. - Malia DeMello
Sharit Cardenas
Period: 3
I think that the actions that Mr. Zimmermans took were not reasonable and very unfair because he felt threaten to see a kid of color at night and he didn't have any support from any other security. He stereotyped due to him being African American. Class does play a big role because if he wasn't dressed appropriately dressed due to his settings.
I think that the killing was more based on racial profiling than just his race. Some people get afraid when they see an african american male in a dark hoodie walking the streets at night. The officer was probably really scared that he might have a concealed weapon. I'm not sure about the economic class thing because I haven't been taught or have really learned about it. All I can say is that it was racial profiling that caused the officer to shoot young Trevon. -Angie :3
i think this was about race because he was black and the only thing he was wearing is a hoodie and he was just geting an ice tea and skittles. i feel like its crazy like to shoot somebody they didn't even do anything, i feel like lot of people need to stop killing these young black males.- alexis demolle
Because georgia's always been a racist state that may have had something to do with it but I just heard about it recently so i'm not sure -Jason Ewing-
In my opinion from what I have heard I believe that the whole killing was based on racial profiling. If he would been wearing different clothing or been a different person he wouldn't have got killed. If Zimmerman had seen that he wasn't wearing a hoodie then he would have thought that he was an educated young black person. Since he was wearing the hoodie Zimmerman probably thought that he was a robber. -Nancy :)
What I use to get my information about things that are going on are is the television: (the news) facebook: (conversating information) my peers: (face to face convo) and my cell phone (messaging, internet, calling ect.)
I believe Mr. Zimmerman was just afraid. He had no reason to shoot Trayon. I dont understand why he would call the police first and then not listen to what they told him.
And how did Trayvon ever threaten the other dude. How does it seem right that you can just shoot anyone in "self-defense". This was all because he was wearing what most of us wear a black hoodie and blue jeans. and to top it all off Trayvon was African America in a "rich" neighborhood.
I don't think it was exactly about race but maybe it was more involved in the way Trayvon presented himself. I think Mr.Zimmerman was scared of how Trayvon looked so he decided to shoot him which isn't justified at all because it was just an assumption.-Anthony Cornejo
This inncodent happened because of race and now its at the point were people feel theatened if they see a black male in a black hoodie and feel that they need to shoot them in order to protect themselves and honestly I think society has gotten worse in terms of when killing a black male there getting away with it < RIP TRAYVON > - Ajanae Evans.
I think Mr. Zimmerman was just being racist he saw a young black boy in a hoodie. There was no reason to shoot him. Mr. Zimmerman had no right to follow him it wasn't his business to find out what Trayvon he even called the police in and they said to leave Trayvon alone and that there was no reason to follow him but he didn't listen to them and killed him. Mr. Zimmerman deserves to get in some type of trouble because he didn't follow orders given to him by the 911 call he made himself and did what he wanted to do anyways which was to kill Trayvon Martin . When the police searched Trayvon's pockets all he had in there were some skittlesThat's why right now he is off some where hiding because he knows he is was wrong for that.
Deja Wiley
I think Trayvon was killed because of his race and part of the reason maybe because of the fact that the neighborhood they lived in did not not have many african americans. These people who don't know many African American people tend to only have the media as their source. And everybody knows that the media usually depicts young african american males as criminals.-Yuto Kurosaka
I think that the Trayvon Martin Case was just about racism and economic class because if Zimmerman was supposedly "protecting" himself... but of what? THE BOY IN THE BLACK HOODIE!? That's crazy! That is the most stupidest excuse ever! Did the kid (KID, he was only 17!) do anything? he was just walking down the street that was apparently safe. That is just unfair and very stupid. - Galy Torres :)
i did not know about the killing. The way i find out whats happening in the world i go to hear it by some one like my family because they watch the news.
I really believe that the killing was about race because he probably was scared that he was going to do something but he could've just approached him and interrogated him instead of trying to use lethal force.And the officer knows he's wrong for what he did because everybody knows that there are many many ways to find out things instead of using force.
- hmmm, tbh, i feel like that Zinnerman guy is hella outta pocket. he definitely did not need to shoot Trayvon. all he had was is phone, some earphones, skittles, ad a freaking arizona maybe it was hella cold. how tf do you confuse those objects with a weapon? was he going to bang you in the head with his bottle? or maybe throw skittles at you? omg. i honestly hate the fact that another BOY is dead at such a young age. this is major b.s. and he neeeddssssssss to go to jail. idc dumb freaking people and their useless pathetic ways. ugh. idk why he killed Trayvon , but that little boy didn't deserve that. yeah i dont really want to talk about this. but when all fails, at the end of the day, Zinnerman was hella wrong and deserves to go down hard.
I don't know what happened to Trayon Martin but i seem a lot of post about him on Facebook, Twitter , etc.-Star Long
I did know about the killing and what happened and where and I knew about the situation, I think it was racial because he was just walking with a black jacket and he looked like he was a junkie and he looks like he might steel but he told the guy that had his gun out to stop serval times and he still to shot - Giovanni Conde
Well Umm I Didnt Know About The Story Or Anything But i Found Out Cause Of Facebook , People Was Posting Pictures Of Trayvon Martin.
-Dayana
i think that the killing was more then just a racist killing i think that society and media portrays black men/boys in hoodies are criminals. so most likely he was probably vary ignorant and was afraid of the image of a black persion in a hoodie and not the actual boy. -tyler oneal
I think that Trayvon Martin was killed because of his race, his skin color just for being black and that's the harsh reality we all must face and it is the most stupidest reason anyone could ever take somebodies life and then not even get put away for it saddens me that people of "color" have to face this who else is next when is the hate going to stop -Maruricia Clark
I didnt know about the killing until we talked about it last week in class.
I dont find out whats happening in the world. I dont get the latest new. I dont want to know whats the latest horrible thing going on in the world. If i do want to know whats the latest thing going on I watch the new or ask friends and family members whats happenin because they do watch the news.
-Felipe Ortega
I guess that the Trayvon Martin case is really a wack case. On the racism aspect, I think that it was out of racism because the guy that shot him said it was out of "self-defense" and that Trayvon was just wearing only a black hoodie and had skittles and iced tea! Also I think it could be because of economic class. I think that Trayvon went through the neighborhood because it was a shortcut or something? And that Trayvon was from another community? But I guess that Zimmerman must have done it out of racism since Trayvon was black? Not sure... - Josh Dela Cruz
Yes, I do think this shooting is about race because think about this: A black young 17-year old wearing a hoodie (probably being seen as planning to murder; a "gang banger" a bandit, etc.) and walking down the street in a nice neighborhood...OF COURSE THIS WOULD BE ABOUT RACE BECAUSE HE WAS AFRICAN-AMERICAN WITH A BLACK HOODIE. That just shows how stereotypical many people can be especially the cops..really? And then the cop said it was "self-defense"...wtf wow ok because he had a BAG OF SKITTLES AND SODA THAT HE WAS GETTING FOR HIS BROTHER?!!!! If i right now were to walk in a "white neighborhood" and the cops spot me, OF COURSE IN A CHANCE I WOULD HAVE DIED. The only reason Treyvon got killed was because (not only due to stereotypical racism but) of mass INSECURITIES THAT THEY HAVE FOR BLACKS..well that cop specifically clearly proves to us that he has insecurities and that probably had to do with him ending up using "self-defense). That cop clearly has problems and he needs help. We live in a fucked up world..sad to say but it's true.
paul
on the news I saw people wearing hoodys in church to remember trayvon beacause that night that he got shot.He was wearing a grey hoody.by this I think that this was a hate crime.
Well, I heard about this right? but like I don't know much so if I'm wrong...sorry? but just deal with it!
Hmm, I don't think it was about race? Like I just think that it was about like the stereotypes there is about like colored people/black people. So I guess it had to do something lightweight with race...? I believe that it has to do A LOT with the whole economic class thing because like why else would they think the kid was "dangerous" in that richie rich neighborhood place/thing. He was probably scared because of all the things people say about black people, because I'm going to be honest, when I was smaller; hecka people when I was smaller used to tell me hella bad stuff about black people and I would be terrified of them!! Until I actually got to meet some you know? So yeah, he was probably scared of the black kid because of the things they hear about black people :P
IGNORANT PEOPLE!!
-Luz Palacios
I don't think Trayvon killing was too much of a race killing since his killer was a colored person too. but you never know. I find it really stupid because his excuse was that he was wearing a black hoodie ! i don't know the whole story so i'm nobody to speak since i found out a little in school and facebook.
-Ivonne Garcia :)
In addition, it's not only that African-Americans are targeted, but Latinos, Mexicans, and any other ethnicity that are rated to have the most people in gangs & the ones that go to jail the most, criminals...it's just that African-Americans are on the top list.
I thiNk Mr.Zimmerman was Stereotyped when he saw the boy because when he was talking to the police they specificly told him not to follow him but Mr.Zimmerman still did. I heard about Trayvon in my advisory and its really mess up because they said Mr.Zimmerman record is clean so that dont mean nothing. I think Mr.ZImmerman should go to JAil cause he had no proof of the boy doing anything Zimmerman was stereotyped because he assume that Trayvon was in a rich area and he thought he would do something.They also said he shot him because every time tried to get the person they get away.Thats all I know but I still think its really mess up. -Mahlia Kaid
I think that the guy had no reason to kill a guy no matter how "threatend"he felt and that he must be a very angry man to have done such a thing.Do i think he should go to jail,yes.Do i think it was because of his racial back round ,mabey i mean there are a lot of stereo types about young black men that dont realy make sense and tend to be racist,also zimerman was also of color.But i dont judge based on race just how good or bad people are of course if there was evidence that it was a racist crime then yes they should also get in trouble for that because its stupid but this boy didnt do anything to Zimerman so what was zimermans problem ?overall I think the crime had to do with race but probably something else that only zimerman knows.But I agree with carmen ^_^ bad things happen everyday ,some because of racism some not ,some worse but why are those not important?-jessica
i do believe that the killing was racial and i believe that due to the fact that the law protects him against his act he didn't have to really think about his action all he has to do is jus say "I felt like my life was in danger" and there is no consequences yet besides knowing that he killed an innocent young man who wasnt wearing a suite and tie or riding an expensive car through the upper class neighbor hood. I 100% believe that his death was based around the stereotypes of race and class. Its straight IGNORANCE !
LA SHAY LAMARR
This whole case was about racism. The fact that Trayvon looked like he was up to no good didn't give Zimmerman a reason to shoot Trayvon.
I think Zimmerman was being racist because he stereotyped Trayvon for wearing a black hoodie and being black thinking that Trayvon was one of those kids that steal or some thing. I don't really think this was about economic class I mean it could of been 50/50 maybe he was thinking that Trayvon was going to steal or jump someone since that place been robbed a lot lately. But he didn't have the proof he going to anything. I don't think Zimmerman was afraid he was probably looking for a way to shoot his because he was being racist. - Jennifer Solis
Zimmerman clearly stated in the 911 tapes that he was black. Trayvon Martin was unlawfully murdered Zimmerman had no right to shoot, nor pursue Trayvon. The 911 dispatch had told Zimmerman that there was no need to pursue him they were on there way. If you listened to the other 911 tape then you can hear that Trayvon was screaming for help, then a gunshot went off. Which means that Trayvon Martin couldn't really be fighting Zimmerman then he was shot in the chest for nothing. the murder had a lot to do with race and class, because if it was a white man he wouldnt have pursued him.-bariki
I feel this murder had nothing to do with race but i do feel that it had alot to do with class tho. but at the same time I think it does have something to dpo with race. i hoonestly have no power to stalk about this situation i dont know all the details so im not sure opinion
-shakeria everetts
man too me thats bull but really though f**ked up becuase i think he saw a black male didnt care what he had on. he was probly cool . like he didnt no him i think he was not scared i think he jjust had problems serious problems
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